Curse

Jaigoda · Feb 28, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Bar compression. If I could maintain Aegis on one monk then it would free one, maybe two slots (Glyph Lesser) on the other monk. Also unlike Glyph of Renewal Assassin's Promise is going to return me energy and recharge more than one skill.

Assassin's Promise is very, very conditional whether or not there's hex removal. Glyph can't be removed, and the recharge is automatic. And why would you need energy-management if you already have Divine Spirit (Aegis also helps with energy-management)?

Arkantos · Feb 28, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Assassin's promise isn't very conditional if you're playing with competent players. I think it's quite obvious this build is aimed towards the better players, or for easier areas. It's also not only used for energy gain, it seems that you're forgetting it recharges all skills, and the bar has 30s and 60s recharge skills. It's a mix of both effects that make this elite useful in this build.

You could run glyph, which is unconditional and recharges one skill. Or you could run assassin's promise, which is somewhat conditional, recharges all skills and has an energy gain. Personally, I prefer the latter.

Coloneh · Feb 28, 2008, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

You wouldn't have to cycle through enemies, you'd have to press t. That is, if you're with a good group that calls.

can you teach my heroes to call targets?

in a guild group your going to most likely be taking a WoH and a RC/Divert because they work well. why waste your elite to maintain energy management you dont need and a skill that can already be maintained (mostly)

Arkantos · Feb 28, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

I think it's pretty obvious if I'm talking about target calling, I'm not talking about h/h groups.

In a guild group, which are usually flexible groups, why not run this? I mean sure, you could run WoH/RC/Divert, but why not run this? Assuming you're group has good players, there's no reason why you can't run unique builds that are effective.

Jaigoda · Feb 28, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

I understand the fact that it recharges skills. I'm saying that Glyph of Renewal (or just not using recharge skills at all and playing with a normal build) is more reliable. While GoR doesn't recharge skills as fast, Aegis and DS don't really need to be up 100% of the time if your team is competent. Maybe if it you built around AP and used Heaven's Delight and its double, Aegis, and other powerful slow-recharging skills, it might win out against GoR. Otherwise, I just don't see the point in justifying something that is so easy to mess up with. Even if you have an awesome team, everyone screws up sometimes, and if your team doesn't kill a foe every 10 seconds, your build loses at least half of its potential strength. And even then there's stuff that would kill your build, like Mark of Protection on Dolyak Riders, or even a foe that's kiting around a bit and gimps your melee's. The problem with AP is that it's just too finicky to use other than for just playing around.

Arkantos · Feb 28, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

As Racthoh said, learn the areas. In areas with very defensive enemies and hex removal, you're going to run into problems. But this build isn't focused on those types of areas, it's focused on areas that have little/no hex removal and less defensive enemies. In the areas the build is focused on, it's much better then GoR. In the areas the build has weaknesses in, it's obviously not going to do so great.

Dr Strangelove · Feb 28, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Of course, in areas easy enough that you can steamroll every mob without worrying about slowdowns and don't have to worry about enemy defense, shutdown or the like, you could probably get by with any bar.

Arkantos · Feb 28, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

In easy areas where you steamroll mobs, you might as well throw hammer bash on your bar and screw around.

This build is fully capable in areas with enemies of difficulty. Assassin's promise has a 3/4 cast time, you'll have enough time to get it on an enemy before it's dead. I really can't think of an area where a single enemy won't be dead within 11 seconds other then the elite missions and some hard mode areas. Of course in these areas, you'll be better off with a standard monk bar.

cellardweller · Feb 28, 2008, 04:05 AM // 04:05

I H'd (before heroes

) an AP based assasin through Factions and I could count the number of times that an enemy didn't die before the hex was over on one hand and the number of times it was removed on two. I have no problems believing that an AP based monk would work "averagely" in 90% of non-trivial PvE.

Jaigoda · Feb 28, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

As Racthoh said, learn the areas. In areas with very defensive enemies and hex removal, you're going to run into problems. But this build isn't focused on those types of areas, it's focused on areas that have little/no hex removal and less defensive enemies. In the areas the build is focused on, it's much better then GoR. In the areas the build has weaknesses in, it's obviously not going to do so great.

And how many areas like these (that's actually got foes above level 20) are present in the game? But anyway, the point is that the build probably does work, but is still much worse than the average hybrid build, and probably more difficult. It might be fun to play around with, but it will not compare to any real monk bar, bottom line.

Cowboy Nastyman · Feb 28, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

his target will always die on time when my sin is around

Coloneh · Feb 28, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

sooo even if you can cast AP reliably 90% of time time what does this + a standard monk have over a standard 2-monk backline?

Div · Feb 28, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Was just testing this and it works pretty well even if you have hero and hench groups provided you ping the target enough times that your heroes decide to all attack the same target

Racthoh · Feb 28, 2008, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman

his target will always die on time when my sin is around

As it did tonight.

It's a fun bar for sure although I want to run it some more in a non-imbagon environment to get a real sense for its usefulness.

It can work in zones with some hex removal provided there are other hexes to eat it first. Divine Spirit, and even Aegis, were not necessary to have up at all times but proved to be quite valuable when I was able to cycle them endlessly against larger/multiple groups. If you're capable of triggering AP every time you should be able to manage without Divine Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

in a guild group your going to most likely be taking a WoH and a RC/Divert because they work well.

In guild groups I'm taking one monk + an SY gon, with various party heals (Breath of the Great Dwarf, There's Nothing To Fear!, Mystic Healing, etc) and passive defenses placed over the other party members. If I'm taking two monks it's because there are NPCs to keep alive at some point. This build works better in such a situation where you have heavily invested in offense and getting those kills in 11 seconds is trivial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

anyway, the point is that the build probably does work, but is still much worse than the average hybrid build, and probably more difficult.

It wasn't very difficult to use when I tested it tonight. T + AP button, do my monk stuff, when I see +14 in purple wait for the next target and repeat. I'm not quite sure what would make this much worse than the average hybrid bar. Release Enchantments as I already said could be replaced with Protective Spirit or Shield of Absorption, but more often than not I find myself wanting a party heal because SY doesn't help against party spread degen. Other than those two skills I can't see what else I am losing by using this build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

And even then there's stuff that would kill your build, like Mark of Protection on Dolyak Riders, or even a foe that's kiting around a bit and gimps your melee's.

It wouldn't take more than a few seconds to get a rider to the point where they have to use Mark of Protection or else they die. At which point change targets. Or, bring Broad Head Arrow and maybe Rending Touch for groups of 2 riders. If there is a kiting enemy, You Move Like A Dwarf! can be slotted on someone easily for such situations. Or, kill something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Glyph of Renewal

Assassin's Promise lets me cast through Diversion - Four Horsemen, Ravenheart Gloom come to mind and are arguably two of the most difficult areas for a balanced group.
Power Release Enchantments - Stronger heal than Heal Party without dipping into Healing Prayers.
Constant Aegis - 5 energy Aegis with Divine Spirit and allows the second monk (if necessary) to bring other tools. More hex removal, more condition removal, other prots, whatever.
Energy management - Used properly you can cycle Divine Spirit as well as the 14 energy returned from AP itself.

Glyph of Renewal gives me energy management.

One is risky with greater rewards, the other is safer but doesn't offer all that much.

MirkoTeran · Feb 28, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I ran a very similar build quite a while ago (without Release Enchantments and a bit different attributes) in normal mode. Its fun but a bit complex to play if you don't have a caller in group as it requires more switching between enemys and allys.

Melody Cross · Feb 28, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

EDITED POST

Alright. Full 180 from my original post. i don't like the build Racthoh, but its got much less to do with its choice of elite. its because there is a much better way to manage party health than release and all that other jazz and, if used effectively, there may even be bonuses to NOT having Aegis on your bar.

Core Combo:
monk
Seed of Life
APromise or GoR (GoR would be preferable to keep proximity of monk away from mobs)
Shield of Absorption

imbagon
Angelic Bond
Save Yourself
Spear of Fury

If you want team healing out the ying yang, Seeding an Abonder will give you that in spades. Due to the low damage on hit inherent with SY, there is much less danger to the Abonder in the first place. With BAura to boost Seed and SoA's uptime, you've made an invinci-imbagon that is healing every time almost anything on your team gets hit. Max seed for 7.5 (say 8 with rune use maybe) out of 11 seconds of team overhealing. Places like HM Urgoz where splinter damage is armor ignoring and heavy. SoA is for the downtime of Seed. Cover enchantments with fact casts--shielding hands, etc--will be a big plus for this combo.

This--of course--does not stay in the bounds of your original idea (to do something other than wand stuff all night long). In fact, if used properly, its probably cruise control monking. But if you're monking beside an SY you cant complain too much, right

If it works, somethings goanna get nerfed. hard!

GGs

Racthoh · Feb 28, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

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